Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land
I am not politically driven.
I typically refrain from expressing an opinion which is political in nature. Partly because it’s not a subject that I’m well versed in and partly because I’m motivated by progress rather than the constant reminder that our world is going to hell, with no thanks to the greedy inhabitants that occupy it.
This whole Lebanon thing of late has really started to grab my attention though. It’s a subject that, as a child, I attempted to learn about but got lost in the history of. It is also a subject which impacts many of my family and friends directly!
The more I have leant about the conflict in Israel, Palestine, Lebanon and many parts of the Middle East, the more I’m reminded of the evils of greedy politicians and the negative impacts of extreme religious attitude.
The basis of many of the middle eastern conflicts seems to centre around Israel and their desire to occupy their “holy land”.
I was sent a link to a very interesting video entitled “Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land”. It’s about US media and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and is well and truly worth watching as it covers the reality of what is going on over there.
Watch it here.
The way I see it, you can chose to live in the blissful ignorance that we are fed by mainstream media, or you can watch this video and forever understand just how fucked up the situation is and how irresponsible the “civilised” world has been around this conflict. At the very least, it will make you that bit more informed about a subject that you probably know very little about and think will never impact you.
-dg
The Middle East has always been about changing borders: over the past 2,000 years, the borders of Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Iraq and just about every other country (that existed) have altered countless of times. This time is no different.
Not only the Middle East, but almost every single (non-sea bound) nation has had their borders altered significantly, within the last 200 years.
Correct, this time is no different, and it is common theme of nations rising and falling throughout history.
What is most disconcerting about this shift, is the inappropriate way in which it is being achieved.
The only constant is Change!
Nations are bound to fall, Cultures will dissappear …
This time is different, like all the times for the last 50 years in Lebanon.. Israel may invade,they may take the land but they will never own it..
Why? because Lebs are too proud to just let them do it.
and before anyone reply back,let me say that Israel occupied south of Lebanon for almost 30 years but never ever considered building settlements in it… why?
because Lebs are too proud to just let them do it.
they built settlments in Palestine and Syria’s Goulan hights…but not in the south of Lebanon..why?
because Lebs are too proud to just let them do it.
After all…maybe our pride is all what we have left…
Georgey boy
I found this today. Jon Stewart’s plan for resolving the conflict.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxbp9SgsQTM
It’s funny but kinda makes sense doesn’t it?
-dg
Having Jerusalem as International City was suggested many times in the Past… Jews rejected it, some muslims did the same..and i must say some radical christians too…
so it makes me wonder :
“what exactly are we doing in the name of God!?”
The Israelis have effectively axed the Golan Heights because it is strategically critical, it is a key water source and it is easily defendable. The Syrians can affectively kiss this place goodbye, it is now part of Israel.
The Israelis never built setttlements in Lebanon because it is simply not really part of the Jewish tradition. Lebanon has bene Lebanon with only a small Jewish population. But the place known as Palestine has been occupied by Arabs and Jews for millenia. The Jews now have the upper hand and believe they have a divine right to the land.
Lebanon faces two choices: either capitulate to Israeli wishes and drive out Hezbollah, or get smashed along with Hezbollah. No one is going to come to Lebanon’s aid now. If Syria tries, they will lose even more land. If Iran tries, the Americans and Israelis will effectively tear the country apart along Persian, Arab and Kurdish lines, via bloody civil war.
Dear Borys;
“The Israelis never built setttlements in Lebanon because it is simply not really part of the Jewish tradition ” but axing Golan heights is??
Read history, building settlments is a major part of jewish traditions!!
what about The occupation of the south of Lebanon and the invasions?? was that part of the Jewish traditions??
It’s a known fact that Israel also wants Lebanese water, why do think they are protective over our Litani river?? Israel built underground tunnels to pull water from that river!!! was that part of their traditions??
Lebanon has only one choice…Surviving…
Not all the lebs agree with Hezbollah
but we all agree on fighting Israel… No one ever came to Lebanon’s help,and we are not expecting any… we wont “capitulate” to Israel’s wishes.. Told you before: “we are too proud to accept it”
for sure, they can destroy the whole country,make it flat …bridges, buildings,airports,roads,power plans,etc… but Hope is their worst fears…
I dont know if you have ever lived in war before.. until you do,you’ll never understand… after a while Death becomes an Honor… so how can you make someone fear you if he doesnt even fears Death!!!
These days wars are fought inside offices.. economy..tourism..culture.. without the USA aids to Israel..they are doomed… Why do you think Israel fears Lebanon.. we are the exact opposite of their “traditions”!!
we are better!!
Georgey boy
Lebanon has been the staging post for strikes into Israel for ages: Israel has limited its response until now. The funny thing is that Hezbollah admitted they miscalculated the Israeli reaction to the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers. Smart move guys…
The water issue is vital and the one reason that Israel will now probably establish a permament prescence in Lebanon, using its secirity as an excuse. I expect that the Wazani Springs will now have a permament Israeli prescence.
Interestingly, America’s aid to Israel is critical to the security of the entire Middle East. If it were to stop, Israel would respond with its nuclear arsenl, which almost happened back during the Six Day War. If America had not flown in those conventional weapons when Israel was almost defeated, it would have launched nuclear weapons on all key Arab targets, most notably the Aswan Dam in Egypt, which would resulted in deaths (directly and indirectly) of millions by that one act alone.
Lebanon is quite free to side with Hezbollah, but it will then face pretty much being bombed back into oblivion. Such as waste, especially if most Lebanese do not agree with Hezbollah.
Do you actually think that bombing Lebanon into oblivion would work??
It would only make them more determined to fight back… It didnt work before,not with the Lebs,not the palestinians…it won’t work now…
Nuclear!! Egypt,Lebanon and Syria are very close to Israel..they wouldnt!
it would mean their own death..and we all know what kind of cowards they are.
Wazzani springs.. yeah,let them try!
The funny thing is that Israel’s generals admit that they miscalculated Hezbollah’s power and they admit that they pallned for this war before the kidnapping…
the Sad thing is that the world is watching,moving so slowly… but like i sid in my first post “The only constant is Change!” so maybe not now, maybe not in 10 years..but Israel is doomed…
Georgey
Hizbullah is a terrorist organization. Period.
One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. But for any Westerner, yes, Hezbollah is pretty much a bunch of criminal thugs.
Georgey Boy, bombing Lebanon will work in part, depending on the objectives. But it will cause a lot of problems, maybe more than it will solve for the Israelis.
And no way Israelis are cowards: just ask any Arab who was fought the IDF forces. They are smart, tough and determined. They have pretty much won every war you name…not the characteristics of cowards.
As for nuking Egypt or Syria, it’s not really that dangerous in terms of fallout. The Israeli nuclear arsenal is full of ERBs – Enhanced Radiation Bombs – which deliver huge amounts of short lived radiation. It is quickly fatal to living tissue but produces very little radioactive material. Also, airburtss of nuclear weapons at the right altitude will produce a high tempereature firewwall which will burn a loty of stuff, but not create radioactive clouds. The Israelis could get away with it. World reaction, however, would be pretty disastrous…
DJ, if hezbollah is a terriorist organisation then they are only fighting fire with fire. It takes only a few first hand accounts and a trip to the south of lebanon (if anyone was fortunate enough to before its latest destruction) to realise the largely untold story of Israeli terrorism.
As horrid as the tactics may seem on both sides, one thing rings clear to me – the Israeli agenda is sinister, based on greed and an attitude that they are somehow a superior race, their lives more worthy…the hezbollah agenda is based on defending their homeland. And yeah yeah Im sure someone will give me the spin about “destroying israel”. spare me, its getting boring…over 1000 deaths, 1000000 displaced, 5000 wounded- and evidence emerging about the use of chemical weapons; whos kidding who?
DJ, Hezbollah is a terrorist group?? What is that based on? You’re going to tell me because the suicide bombings. Well every nation has the right to defend itself with any means possible, that was the only means they had at that time to defend themselves against one of the best armies in the world. Compared to the Israelis they had light weaponry. All their targets were Israeli military targets inside the Lebanese territories.
Occupation of another country is another form of terrorism.
For the survival of a nation some sacrifice themselves for the survival of others. No one likes to be humiliated, no one likes to be occupied, no one likes to see any member of their family tortured or their dignity destroyed. That’s why they will never bow down to any aggressive occupation force.
Terrorism is in the eye of the beholder. What some people see as resistance, the other side will see that as terrorism. How much innocent blood is on the US hands, Hiroshima, Vietnam, N.Korea, Sudan, Afghanistan and Iraq. Millions and millions of innocent lives on their hands. Wouldn’t you say that is terrorism??
Anyway after the civil war, the Lebanese army was very weak and broken into factions. Hezbollah was founded in 1982 after the Israelis invaded Lebanon. They were young guys, the oldest 27 years old and the current chairman Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah was one of them. They were there to drive the Israeli occupation out Lebanon.
The Israelis occupied most of the South of the country until the year 2000 and they still do occupy the Sheb’a farms. Regardless of what anyone says about the Sheb’a farms if they are Syrian or Lebanese territory, when you ask the people living there they tell you they are Lebanese.
Israel still till today holds in its prisons Lebanese citizens and they are unwilling to give them up. And the Israelis say that they have the right to return their Prisoners with any means possible even if they have to destroy Lebanon and rightly so, The Lebanese have that same right.
Israel has always everyday for the past 26 years and until now, sent their military aircraft over Lebanese airspace, their military boats in Lebanese waters. Which country in this world will accept another country to do the same?
In the current situation, Hezbollah said we want to negotiate the release of our prisoners. Israel said no and put itself in destruction mode. Hezbollah started launching rockets 2 days later.
Borys uses the word”axed” when talking about occupation of the Golan Heights. The Syrians have the right to “Axe” it back. Also parts of Lebanon’s south is part of the Jewish tradition. Where I was born, the Israelis occupied it and wanted to give it to African Jews. Syria is part of that tradition as well and so is Jordan and Iraq. Land grab on the Israelis side is a policy. You want to capitulate, submit and bow down to your enemy, you do that and you’ll always be a slave and always be stepped on. The Lebanese won’t do that.
Israel will not be able to use nuclear weapons against Lebanon; they get their water from there so that’ll mean their destruction as well.
Like George is saying the War against Lebanon was pre-planned way before the kidnapping of the 2 soldiers. There’s a greater plan to attack Syria and Iran and it’s just a matter of time. And yes it’s true water is a rare commodity in that region and that will be the cause of the next phase of wars in that region, if this hasn’t already started. The US and Israel are planning for a “new middle-east” and yes they will get that but it won’t be what they hoped for with what they meant by “new middle-east”.
There is no objective in the current situation for the Israelis but destroy whatever they can aim their weapons at.
My Grandmother used to tell me stories about how there was no borders between Lebanon and occupied-Palestine before Israel’s inception.
Face the facts: does anyone care about Lebanon? Nope. Not a single Arab state. Syria would like to take around 25-30% of Lebanon for itself. The Egyptians are happy with their Israeli trade ties, the Saudis are too busy having their sex orgies in Europe to care too much either. Iran can hit Israel hard, but the Americans can hi them even harder, tear the nation apart along ethnic lines.
And if anyone thinks that Israel is going anywhere, think again: it is too well armed, too smart and too tough to be beaten. I have no doubt that pretty much every Arab nation could be wiped out by Israel very quickly, if America came to its assistance – and it will. Israel will not go anywhere, despite the rhetoric in the region.
It seems that we are at the start of a new war that will reshape the borders of many nations…and at the end of the day, Israel may be the only nation smiling.
Borys… “does anyone care about Lebanon?Nope..”
is that your argument?? come on.. how on earth did you come up with this?
what about Lebanese?? ah wait..maybe they dont count!!
You are saying that since Israel has military power then whatever she says should be right.. Please.. look around..
Israel is going nowhere..yeah..maybe..but so is Lebanon…and Palestine..
This war is not reshaping the borders of many nations…
Trust me Israel aint smiling.. That’s just fake smiles and masks..
Even if Hezbollah lost this one (which i doubt,stop watching CNN, dig deeper)..there will be others… and the fight will go on..
Georgey boy
By the examples I used it was external countries: who are Lebanon’s allies that will stand up for Lebanon without expecting something in return? Not a single one.
The Arabs want to fight Israel, the problem is that it is a fight that they cannot win. Israel can simply use any attack as an excuse to expand its borders. And it will.
Hezbollah will lose this war, but Israel will pay a huge price. The question is how Hezbollah can regroup. But the ultimate quetsion is what will be the fate of Lebanon afterwards. Only a MASSIVE relief effort can rebuild it, and that will take around USD 10 billion at least, given current damage levels.
Let’s see how generous the Arab states are with their oil money.
I’m not sure where you got your info from that Syria wants to take 25-30% but that is very untrue. maybe on CCN or CH10 on israeli TV. The only countries that don’t care about Lebanon are the USA’s puppets in the region, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and none of the Arab countries are a match militarily compared to Israel so they would lose very easily. But they are there morally and finnacially to support Lebanon. Saudi Arabia donated 1.5 billion dollars, Qatar 500 million, even the US of A 30 million and that’s funny cause they supplied Israel with the weapons at that same time.
Look the US is stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan and their resourses are stretched out, I don’t think they want confrontation with Iran. No one is disputing that Israel is not able to destroy the middle-east with it’s nuclear weapons. that’s a fact and a scary one too because they’re psycho enough to do it. But when that happens i think it’ll be a ripple effect for the entire world and WW3 is here and do you think China, Russia and N.Korea will be on USA side? NOT a chance. and also I think this time round they will expand their borders and they’re doing that every day in the Gaza strip and the west bank too.
Israel is not going anywhere but it’ll live it’s miserable life forever and always under fear and it’ll never smile. It’s the people power in Lebanon that demonstrated their strength in comfronting Israel through Hezbollah. Now Hezbollah does not have to win, Israel does and on the ground they are being humiliated by a small army that does not own air power or naval fleet.
Lebanon’s allies know that lebanon does not have any resources so there’s nothing that they expect in return.
This is what Israel built on. a quote because I can..
“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I don’t blame you because geography books no longer exist, not only do the books not exist, .The Arab villages are not there either. Nahal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibat; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kfar Yehushu’a in the place of Tal al Shuman. There is not one single place that did not have a former Arab population.” Moshe Dayan 1969
Well, the concept of Bilad al-sham (I think it sounds like that) has been mentioned to me a few times. Assad’s father said in 1972 that “Syria and Lebnon are one country”…hmmmm. The concept of a Greater Syria is very much along the lines – and greater in ambition – than Greater Israel. Lebanon has the dubious honour of being a country that Syria believes should be part of it.
I would hardly say Israel is being humiliated, but no question that Hezbollah is proving tougher and trickier than expected. But the reality is Hezbollah is slowly being broken apart. They will have a few more wins, they will make Israel pay a price, but their defeat is certain…and sadly, they will take Lebanon down with them.
The land grab is nothing special: France and Germany have had a shifting border for a few hundred years, same with Poland and Germany. Czech Republic and Germany. Russia and Ukraine. China and Russia. China and India. I can go on and on. It’s the way of the world.
The US is indeed stretched thin, but that is for ground troops. An attack on Iran would be largely limited to airstrikes and sea war, with special forces orgazning local resistance groups. Iran is actually a very divided country: the Arabs I know do not like the Persians and the Persians despise the Azeris and everyone does not like the Kurds. Would not be hard to start a civil war with that mix.
Oh, as for the Saudis, they were asked if they were prepared to use oil as a weapon to make the US force Israel to stop. Here is what they said…
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-08-03T105621Z_01_L03259481_RTRUKOC_0_US-ENERGY-SAUDI.xml&archived=False
Yep, great friends.
And as an addendum to Peace Propaganda & The Promised Land, you have to watch this interview with George Galloway on Sky News. He hits the nail on the head, over and over again!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14391.htm
-dg
Thanx Galloway…
The western world needs more people like you…
LOL, George Galloway is a riot. Absolute loon going back many years. Makes a few interesting points, but he is a long standing left winger= who is not taken seriously. He’s a very funny guy and makes for great TV in bets tradition of British eccentrics. But the truth is, he won’t change a thing. Lebanon will continue to get pounded into oblivion with more innocent people getting killed, Israel will get some unpleasant surprises with a few more civilians dyring and Syria may well suddenly find itself in a world of hurt. And the end of the day, Israel may just simply do with much of Southern Lebanon what they did with the Golan Heights.
Here is Israel’s revenge:
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/07/mideast.main/index.html
40 dead. Probably more. There will be more and more of this and the world will do nothing.
For a loon, he makes alot of sense.
More on him here.
-dg
40 dead..maybe more…
you must be out of ur mind!!!
can you really understand what you are saying.. People are dying… innocent people are dying …
War is not a game…
Yeah it’s true, Israel is strong… but will she ever rest?will she ever be in Pease?never..why.. fighters like Hizballah and Hamas are ready to sacrifice their lives for their cause…
they will die,they will be captured,they will be killed… but others will come… you are missing the point.. when you are born in an environment where ur brother or father has been tortured or killed by Israel.. all you think about is Honor and Revenge..
Do you think it will stop if Israel stayed in south of Lebanon?? History will repeat itself… 25th of May 2000 will be a motivation… remember that date.. it’s when Israel left in defeat!!! Hizbollah did it the first time…why not again?
Arab support…Hizbollah didnt need it in 2000…he won’t ask for it now..
40 dead… that’s courage… funny how they are fighting from the air… let me see them going forward on land…
Thanks Borys for the link…look carefuly in the image… the man just lost his house..but what is he holding??
May they rest in Peace
Georgey boy
The question can be turned around: none of the Arab states will have any peace either.
This is war: no different to the wars fought for the past 4,000 years. People die: the innocent, the guilty, the soliders, the civilians, the young, the old. Houses are destroyed. So are lives. And it will continue. It’s not a game, it’s reality. The question is what has top be done to stop it…and what will be done to stop it.
Dude, this is very different to the wars that have been fought for the past 4000 years.
1) This war is being fought now
2) This war directly impacts people you know
3) This war impacts the world that you currently live in
4) Just because it’s happening and has happened for centuries, doesn’t make it right
Frankly, it’s a cop out to lay out numbers of damage and relegate this to be a repeat of history. The purpose of dialog and discussion is to better understand what is going on and be more educated on the topic at hand. Or maybe even to inspire change. Stop sounding so defeated.
My thing has always been that people are entitled to make up their own minds; the important thing is that they are informed when making it.
What is vexing me here is:
1) The lack of accurate information being reported in the main stream media.
2) That this misinformation continues to be “reported”
3) People like George Galloway are dismissed as a loon by privileged, educated people (such as yourself) who know better, All I hear from the likes of Galloway is the facts
-dg
And now another casualty of the war.
http://vincenze.com/?p=175
-dg
Galloway is a loon, full stop. Here is a great video of him…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1532509206579317476
Ah, yes, Saddam’s charming son Uday, a lovely chap who took great delight in gang raping women, dismembering Kurds and feeding political prisoners into mincing machines…
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006040109,00.html
Yes, I can really believe Galloway’s view on things.
How is this war different? The Yugoslav wars were fought only a decade ago, pretty much in the media spotlight. Brutal atrocities were commited by all sides, including rape, torture more in common with the Middle Ages than with supposedly civilized society and a scorched earth policy. War has never been pretty. It’s not pretty for the civilians who get blown up. It is not pretty for the soldiers who fight it. It is not pretty for the people who have to pick up the pieces.
No, it doesn’t make it right. And if anyone for a second thinks that anythign anyone does will amek wars in the Middle East stop, they clearly don’t know their history. Some people simply think that Israel does not have a right to exist. Israel think it has a right to more land currently held by Arab states. Muslims don’t like Jews. Vice versa. The Temple Mount or Al Aqsa Mosque?
Come on, who in their right mind believes this is going to be resolved?
It won’t. The idealists throughout history have always been defeated. This is reality. Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map, Syria wants to help it, Hezbollah is being used as a proxy and Lebanon is caught in the middle. Israel wnats more land, it wnats Lebanon’s water resources and it wants all threats to it removed.
There is not going to be a solution. Kid yoursleves as much as you want. Go to peace demosntrations. It’s not going to make any difference.
I’ve just finished watching a show on SBS, Anti-semitism In The 21st Century… anyone else see it?
Brief (watch it if you can grab it from somwhere) standouts:
*many arab leaders preach a text known as The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, I haven’t read it myself but it claims Jews plan to take over the world for themselves, very out there.
*Jews being blamed for the twin tower attack, basically for everything evil and bad in the world. One speaker even claimed the tsunami was the work of some zionist order and the Jews and Hitler were in cahouts.
*it also went into detail on anti-semitism and how it evolved, in particular out of the European Christian world.
Very crude anecdotes perhaps… but if learning and understanding is the aim here then the past is worth considering.
v.
Vincenze! You fell for that show (i mean, shit) last night. C’mon, what sort of coincindence is it that this show airs at this particulary point in time on our biased media. We sat there rolling our eyes and I just had to leave the room. Anti-semitism is just a fake term that Jews use everytime they are faced with critisicm. Yes there are extremist opinions of a very tiny minority and jews have been very good at finding these voices and packaging them into such shows, then pushing them through our media for the benefit of our “learning and understanding”.
Boris, your analysis seems to be that this is “same old same old”…you miss something that is different this time. There is a unity among the Lebanese that has not been seen before. And this seems to be spreading across the arab world. From all accounts (and first hand accounts from relatives in Lebanon) the vast majority are with the resistance movement (hezbollah). You’re probably right that there won’t be a solution and the slaughter will continue, but I dont think it will be same old same old. There is a shift happening somewhere. Im no political analyst but I think ( I hope) that the world will start to see past what they give us in main stream media, will start to ignore the “anti-semitism you need to feel sorry and guilty” and speak up in voices that force the US and Israel to at least be pushed back into their place (ie out of occupied territories). And one more corretion for your comment “muslims dont like jews”. that should read muslims dont like the zionist ideaology and regimes.
It’s better a looney like George Galloway than an insane Blair, Bush and Olmert any day, these 3 are more than looneys, they are crazy. For such a “comedian” (cause he makes you laugh), he gets a lot of publicity. and in all the discussions Borys justified that it is normal and very acceptable that israel has done this to the Lebanese.
Israel might take over the South of Lebanon and that will take things back to the pre-2000 state. If Israel could not defeat Hizbollah then, how are they going to do that now??? and even if they do, another one will be born.
I find it funny, That Israel claims it wants to rescue 2 of it’s captured soldiers when 10s of their soldiers died already. what sense is that?
Yes we do know more than you do Borys that war is not pretty and what war is all about, we lived it, we seen it first hand. When you live in a war zone, and you see normal everyday people that you know in pieces, family members tortured, humiliated, noses cut-off, ears cut-off, people go missing, AK-47 pointed at you and especially at your mum etc etc ON the hands of the israelis then I don’t think anyone can come and convince me and say that the israelis are good, democratic people. All I have to say is that you’re delusional.
Nothing will be done to stop this, this has lasted for the past 29 days and noone has intervened because of the racist, colonialistic attitude, we’re better than the Arabs attitude, from the west. The only way to stop this is through resistance (hizbollah) and that is it. The israelis only understand brutal force and they will get that unless they give ack the Sheb’a farms and the lebanese prisoners in the israeli jails.
When israel was conceived, there was indigenous people that lived there, it was not empty and now you have all the european jews that migrated there and that is what created this mess. Hizbollah is not a proxy to anyone, they get support and fund from Syria and Iran in the same sense that Israel gets support from the USA and UK. Hizbollah is made up of Lebanese citizens mostly Shi’a muslims and tehy have the right to defend their country simple.
Everytime you criticise israel, you’ll always get the anti-semitic bullshit. Being Semetic is anyone that speaks: Arabic, Hebrew, Persian, maltese. it’s like a black man being racist against another black man. The Jews won’t tell you that there was a golden age coined by their ancestors where the jews lived among muslims and were free to worship and do whatever they want. There’s hate on both sides because of what is goign on in Palestine and Lebanon and that is is. There is no hate for another religion in islam. it is totally forbidden. so everyone gets your facts right. Anyway, Zionism is a racist ideology and all israelis believe in it.
Vinceze You should watch then the documentary by John Pilger “Palestine is still the issue”, I got it if you want it, but maybe that’ll be another looney for Borys.
Y… all media is bias.
I didn’t fall for anything, to me it was just another point of view much like yours, mine, borys’s etc
I actually found the story very well balanced, of course it was about antisemitism as the title suggested so if you don’t beleive that exists then I understand why you were rolling your eyes.
For me antisemitism was just a word, now it has meaning, weather it was made up by the jews or a real thing is another issue entirely.
For this discussion to progress, I’ll try any summarise a few more points:
1. I say the report was balanced ’cause they interviewed many professors and people, from many backgrounds, israel, arab, christian, muslim, jewish, american etc
2. A picture was painted of why arabs hate the jews and vise versa, based on the history of emmigration, wars lost by arabs, occupation etc I found this very interesting.
3. If a group says their goal is the destruction of another group, what am I to think of this group? that goes for all sides.
4. Coincidence? The same could be said for peace, propaganda et al.
5. Antisemitism made up? I agree it can be used as a defense for anything against Jews and prior to watch this thats all I took it for, HUGE DISTINCTION… saying the Jews are evil sons of pigs and monkeys or whatever is antisemitism, saying they’re occupying my land unlawfyully and therefore they suck is not.
Happy to grab a copy H.
h, I think you better re-read what I have said a little more carefully: I am not saying that it is right what Israel does, I am saying it is reality and that it is attitudes such as yours the make my point even more correct. I am an outside observer in thsi context but during 1995/1996, I had a very close up experience as to bombs and shootings, so I suggest you pause a little before making sweeping assumptions which have no basis. I am well aware of the look on someone’s face as pieces of their son are picked up all over a street, and I don’t think I need to see it more than once to get the idea.
Your attitude, sadly, is the reason why the Middle East will never have peace. All Israelis are zionists? Well, tell that to the Israeli Arabs. All Jews are Zionists? Tell that to Israel Shamir (look him up). The Israelis only undertsand brutal force. Sure, OK. They got that from Hezbollah. Now look at what Lebanon is getting in return.
Your belief reflects that of many Arabs, and you have plenty of equals on the Israeli side, who see all Arabs as suicide bombers and all Muslims as followers of a racist religion. Neither view is completely correct, but that doesn’t matter. The other side believes the worse about the other and atrocities keep get commited. Naturally, you will say “It’s the Zionists/Jews fault!”. They will say its yours. And around we go again as more innocents on both sides die.
Let’s see what happens at the end of the day here. Lebanon will be in ruins and probably occupied in part. Beyond that, I don’t know.
Borys,
1. H’s attitude is not the reason why the middle east will never have peace. Its Israel’s brutal and illegal occupation of other people’s territority that keeps peace from the region.
2. “israelis only understand brutal force…they got that from Hezbollah”. what?? how is that logical when the resistance group was formed as a direct response to israeli aggression. You continually equate israel’s actions with hezbollah’s. It seems to me that your attitude is that both sides are equally in the wrong. Does this equate to fench sitting? Hezbollah has not invaded any isreali land to date. they are fighting off the military entering their own land for the purpose of occupation. Meanwhile, israel targets and slaughters non-military, non-militia civilians. They do not act in defense ..that only makes the situation inequal.
3. “Let’s see what happens at the end of the day here. Lebanon will be in ruins and probably occupied in part”.
So this is saying that Israels agenda, in the end, will prevail. Well maybe in the first instance but like h says, there will be another resistance and this is the reason why they will never have peace. Has anyone considered what would happen if Israel stopped its aggressive use of terrorism in the region? Maybe if they withdrew from occupied territories, let the palestinians run their own sovereign state with part of Jerusalem as their capital, gave back all of lebanon’s recognised lands and released hundreds of POWs that it keeps..maybe then there could be peace.
1. That is the Arab perspective. The Jewish perspective is that Arabs occupy land that has been granted to Israel by God. Go figure. As I have said before, the regions has had shiting borders for thousdands of years. The Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran (Persia) and Lebanon look pretty different to what they did 40, 400 and 4,000 years ago.
2. Hezbollah lacks the accuracy inj its weapons to target military assets, os it uses it s rockets as terror weapons. Israel targets military assets because it realises the propaganda value against it when civilians are killed., But it screws up often, and Hezbollah blends amongst the civilian population.
3. OK, how about is Lebanon gives back land that Israel says belongs to it, stops launching rocket attacks on Israel etc etc. You take the Arab side. Jews take the Israeli side.
At the end of the day, the biggest guns win. Such is the way of the world and the way of history. Israel gave up the Sinai and got a cold peace with Egypt. But Lebanon has things Israel needs to survive. Land and water.
I want you to think about something what Hezbollah has done. They have given Israel the reason it has long wanted to seize the Wazani Springs. That is now a fact. See if Lebanon ever gets it back. That is what Israel really wanted and Hezbollah gave it to them on a platter.
I just sit back and thank God I live in Australia where this battle just better be fought with words and nothing else.
“At the end of the day biggest guns win”
History says that’s not right!! Vietnam is one example.. South of lebanon will be another one…
biggest gun can have land for a period of time..but he’ll never win…
All i can say for the moment is just wait and see… at the end of the day Israel will go back to it’s Border… Wazzani river is way out of reach… they already lowered their tone and demands..the US-French proposal is being modified… Isnt that a moral win for Hizballah? for the sake of 2 soldiers Israel already lost 50..True, the Leb side lost more,10 times more..
“But Lebanon has things Israel needs to survive. Land and water.”
Everyone needs that to survive!! so why Israel should take what’s for Lebanon?? let me guess..they have bigger guns… I dont know what kind of world we are living in if that’s logic..
Patience..just wait and see… we can talk all day about the subject… Everone has a point of view.. just wait and see..
Maybe it won’t be the last time Israel wins a war and take land…but rest assure it won’t be the last time that someome like Hizballah fighting back and making their demands heard…
it’s a never ending discussion..never ending blaming games..
wait and see..
I started to beleive that Khaibar will repeat itself!
yes God gave the Jews that land but that was 3000 years ago and things have changed since, some jews became christians when Christianity came and then some of those christians and jews became muslims when islam came. normal social evolution. they all lived happily until the European Zionist Jews showed up to over take.
My attitude and the attitude of others is not the reason we don’t have peace. you know quiet well that israel has invaded Lebanon in the 70s until now and that is something that the Lebanese will not turn a blind eye to. You might accept it that your house gets taken away and you and your family get humiliated and get treated like crap but the Lebanese will not. It’s not my attitude that is doing that, Hizbollah is born as a reaction to the israeli occupation, aggression and violance in Lebanon. Hizbollah is made up of Lebanese citizens and that is a fact.
Do you think the israeli Arabs like being treated like 2nd class citizens? look at the situation now, the israelie arabs do not have bomb shelters like the israeli jews do. the israeli government is treating the israeli arabs as suspicious incase they betray the state of israel. Israel Shamir is swedish not Israelie so i don’t know what you’re trying to get at, Even Albert Einstein was anti-zionist we know that. there are alot of Jews that are. nothing knew.
Hezbollah lacks the accuracy and Israel has the accuracy but still misses and kills 100s of civilians go figure. don’t be rediculous and say that Hizbollah fires from civilian areas. tell that to the people that were trying to leave after they’ve been told by the israelis to leave their towns and then F16 comes and just bombs their cars as they were leaving. tell that to the many ambulances that have been hit or actually the UN post that got demolished and killed 4.
The israelis will take part of Lebanon and the water and part of Syria as well BUT in time 20-30 years time, they’ll have to go back like they did in 2000.. It’s the will of the people and it’ll be done.
yeah Thank God that we’re far away from all that. and this discussion is going round and round.
Ha ha ha. It’s funny how some people summarise history and classify it as normal social evolution. This war is beyond borders and land-grabbing, this war is about existence and ideology. It is clear that Israel is unwanted by its neighbor to exist, and this is not just about the Israeli-Arab conflict. Somewhere in some place there is a belief that there should be one global religion that should rule the world, especially when their saviour reappears again. Hey, it is not christianity, it is NOT taught in the New Testament, that christians should kill non-christians saw Jesus can come back, although it happened in the name of power during the crusades. But that is already history. One more thing, why is it that the believers of this faith can freely practice their faith in other lands, yet those who are of not the same faith in their land cannot practice their own faith. And now we are talking about discrimination and treating others as sub-human. Indifference is closer to home than what you usually think.
funny you like to summarise history as well.
it is not beyond borders and land grabbing, everyday israel is expanding its borders, more land, more resources, more control for them. Ofcourse israel is unwanted by its neighbours because since its inception, all it created is problems and trouble. it is an occupying force.
you know that I am muslim, you know that i’m married to a christian and so I do not think that you have any slight idea about islam or of what you are talking about.
no offence to any christian but if you think christianity is not trying to turn the world into a christian world then tell me why do they have missionaries that are sent to all these countries trying to convert them??
Some Christians in the US believe if they support the Jews in their mission to try and build the temple then the messiah will come and the Jews will see the light and they’ll convert to christianity and these christians have the belief that it won’t be the Jewish messiah it’ll be Jesus.
The Jews want to build the temple so that their messiah will come and every body will convert to Judaism.
get a life..
discrimanation is everywhere I guess.
I didn’t know you were a muslim, and i’m glad you are open-minded enough to have married a christian, and I hope it’s all working out for both of you, and that your wife is still freely practising her christianity.
Actually, I am starting to read about islam, so i can understand where you are all coming from, but sadly the more I read your text, the more I have an idea why there is a rise of islamo-fascism all over the world. Please educate us how peaceful your religion is so we would understand that aspect of your religion that is liberating and freedom-loving, and not dictating and not avert to other religion.
The christians are sharing about the salvation of Jesus Christ non-violently these days, most often than not they are being persecuted for doing so. There could still be christian extremist, but they haven’t been in the news lately, and I think most of them are involved in racketeering for self-gain. And if one think for themselves, they wouldn’t be lured by this so-called prophets. But it’s evident in the non-muslim world that there is no concerted effort by any goverment, or governments to be aristocratic about religion. There is freedom in practising any belief you want, as long as you don’t hurt someone. If there is one such non-muslim country that does otherwise, then maybe you can point it out and make a list.
what is this for? “get a life..” you just showed how your religion transformed your consciousness that emanated these words. have a happy life! :-)
DJ, why participate in a conversation that you clearly have very little understanding of? (perhaps re-read the original blog post).
Most of your response here makes no sense and rather than bother to address whatever points one can derive from your waffle, I would only suggest that you stick to topics that you have a clue about (if any).
Hmm… it doesn’t make any sense if you have already close your mind. I’ve read the original post, and it’s quite clear that my post is along the original thread. Do you think by saying that I know little about the topic, it would make my post less important? Maybe you can start making educational references in your posts, so that you can make your post a bit more valid than everyone else. If it makes you happy, go for it, I support you! :-)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200608/s1713388.htm